[joannavenneri]

Yes.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Thanks for including the print example. It shows exactly what the situation is. It was very helpful.

Take a deep breath--2011 Formats has made a significant change here. Shared/incomplete poetic lines are no longer given any special treatment. That entire rule is dropped. It was determined that in most cases the shared poetic line is difficult or impossible to detect anyway, so such lines are treated as any other line in the poem.

Note that the indention pattern of a poem is determined by the ENTIRE poem (13.3.1) so I see 1-7, 3-7, 5-7 for your poem, assuming that there's nothing different in the rest of it, if there's more not shown here. The first line in the first standza is 3-7 and the first line in the second stanza is 5-7. All the rest are 1-7. In poems only the line numbers shown in print are brailled, so the braille reader has exactly the same information as the print reader. If that is truly a shared poetic line and if the reader wishes to explore that, the lines can be counted in braille just as the print reader would count them.

To summarize. poetic lines are now treated according to the indention pattern established for that poem even if they are preceived as shared/incomplete.

I conferred with Lynnette on this one--thanks Lynnette!

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

I think this is a Nemeth situation. Nemeth formatting has precedence over textbook formatting. Please post this over in Math, where you will be advised about relevant Nemeth formatting. THEN if there are formatting issues not covered in Nemeth, textbook guidelines take over. I am not familiar with anything referring to termination of a graphic indicator. I could be having a senior moment, or this could be a Nemeth thing. I know there is often overlap. Please ask at Math first, then come back if there's anything left for textbook to consider.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

You can certainly list the additional authors on the second title page. I'm not sure an additional heading "Authors of the set" would be helpful. Set of what? Without seeing the print or braille title page, I can't tell which titles are shown and which title is the title of the set and it that is clear on the title page. And I'm not sure this is clear to the reader anyway. I think the reader just sees the titles on the title page. I think you can just list the additional authors without specifying any further. You might have a heading "Additional authors" if you feel that would add clarity.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Sorry, posted before I attached sample page.

[joannavenneri]

That is TOO much. Real life is often like that. However, I do feel that braille readers are resourceful and they do take clues from our excellent formatting. I am GUESSING that those page identifiers are intended to mean something like first, second, fourth, whatever because there is no print label that even a sighted person can access. In that case, I do know that braille readers are adept at doing the same kind of skimming and navigating and those empty page turn indicators serve as landmarks.

What an interesting question! Thanks for posting it.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Thanks for all your help. BTW in response to your statement "In that case, what does ANYONE refer to? What would the print reader refer to?" at the end of this book there is a list of photos identified by page one, two, three, etc. Fortunately, I'm not including that list in the book.

[joannavenneri]

In the middle of a sentence! Egad! I had no idea. In that case, let's leave it in. And now that I think of it, your TN is at the end of page 88, the last page with text before the fun starts. Run your TN where it falls on line 25. It explains that text is continued on page 89. Next braille page there is no print page number! It isn't page 89. The captions begin. Now the reader knows that this MUST be a new print page because there is no number, the text has been interrupted and your TN said the text would continue on page 89 and this new braille page sure isn't page 89. And there are captions that interrupt the sentence he or she was just reading!

I'm sorry. Guess I wasn't clear. The only reason we have page turn indicators is to announce the next print page. When you ask how the reader knows you turned a page that can't be identified, what difference does it make? The fact that you have arrived at the next braille page and there is STILL no print page tells the reader we're still in the land of no print page numbers. In that case, what does ANYONE refer to? What would the print reader refer to? In the absence of page numbers, that EVERYONE can refer to, both the print and braille reader will refer to the content on the those page. You know, Hey, Joanna look at the page with the windmill. Works in braille too, since you've perhaps briefly described pictures not explained sufficiently with the caption.

You can't show what isn't there. There is no way to show that the page turned right at the new braille page, but in the absence of a page number, turning that page in print is not particularly meanginful. The only thing you could do would be to run a TN that says this is a new print page. Personally, I wouldn't. I think the reader would find it annoying and intrusive because that would tell them what is obviously by reading the entire sequence. What is meangingful is the text on that new page, especially in this case. Sooner or later, either print page numbers will resume or a page change will occur where you can show it. The reader will get it. Remember the reader will see this ENTIRE situation, not just that one little place where the print page turned in a place where it couldn't be directly shown.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not refer to 1997 Formats. Those rules are no longer in effect and they don't help. It doesn't matter what the rule used to be. If it is still in effect, it will be in the 2011 Formats. It's not in 2011 Formats, it's no longer in effect.

One of the big changes in Notes is location in braille. They are now located at the end of the print page. The single asterisk note is on the same print page and it should not be repeated. The type of indicator (the asterisk) lets the reader know that each time ON THE SAME PRINT PAGE, that asterisk refers to the same note. This is the same way the print reader would read it. It would look pretty strange in print if the note were repeated each time it was referred to. The new guidelines give the braille reader access to read the notes the same way that print readers do. Braille readers don't need to see the same thing repeated one after the other either. The second note, with the double asterisk will also appear in the same location in braille, at the end of the print page after the separation line. The double asterisk in both places, in the text and at the note itself, tells the reader which note refers to which reference, just like print.

If the reference to the same note is again given on a DIFFERENT PRINT PAGE, see 16.5.5 Notes on a different page. (Which is NOT the case in your print.)

For the sidebar, see 12.3.1 AND Sample 12-3. Ignore the arrows in braille and use them as a guide for the best placement of the sidebar.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

All the guidelines about Notes have changed a great deal. Please attach the print page that shows these repeated references.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Joanna,
Now that I know we do indeed braille the print page number as well as the braille page number in the preliminary pages, I have an additional question.

I have 12 pages of TOC. Therefore, many volumes change Print Page Number within the volume TOC. Would I use the Page Change Indicator at the appropriate place in the contents page, or would I braille the first Print Page Number as a range, such as "ix-x", which would make the second TOC page "ax".

Thanks,
Patty

[joannavenneri]

See Section 2.7.1b which specifically covers print page numbers on front matter--Table of Contents comes under front matter.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

I'm afraid we don't. There just aren't any United States standards for this. Technically, foreign language transcription falls within the scope of Formats and Textbooks. The languages that are covered are mostly European languages and those all use the latin alphabet, usually with some accented letters. Knowledge of the language is not necessary in order to transcribe it because the alphabet is the same. Russian, Hebrew and Greek also have United States standards and those languages DO require that the transcriber know the language because the alphabet is so different But there are established United States rules for those languages that include dot assignments for each letter and formatting. To do Chinese, the transcriber would have to be knowledgeable of Chinese braille standards as done in China, and I guess that would also mean knowing the dialect as well. A transcriber doing foreign language in the United States is certified by BANA (Braille Authority of NORTH AMERICA) which unfortunately does not include China.

I have not researched it, but it is even possible that braille in China requires that the material be modified to the latin alphabet before it can be done in braille. I think I read that some place, but I'm not positive.

Sorry!

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

The documents are in Chinese characters. Where do we go from here. Thanks

[joannavenneri]

This is no standard in the United for Chinese braille at this time. Is the Chinese printed in the latinized alphabet or in the Chinese characters? But depending on the nature of the material, its complexity and intended use, it could be possible to produced braille that is adapated to Chinese.

--Joanna

[Author]

Posts