[joannavenneri]

I have to stand by my original suggestions.
See 12.3.1 and note extactly what it says about pointing devices with sidebars. It also covers placement. I think you will see that what I said reflects that. You might want to consider the purpose of that pointing device in print and how it serves the print reader. The arrow had not meaning to the braille reader. It is the PLACEMENT that has meaning and the arrow is used by the transcriber to determine placement.

As for inserting a box inside a box, I also stand by what I said. The sighted reader can see whether one box is actually inside another in print. The braille reader cannot. I strongly disagree with informing the braille reader that a box is printed inside another box when in fact it is not actually printed that way.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Could you please answer my first question regarding how to handle notes with lines, arrows, and pointing devices in the new code? Do we just ignore them now?

Since you agree that the pointing device used shows a relationship to the highlighted text, don't they have to aways follow each other to reflect what the print is showing?
Your format doesn't make any reference to the fact that there is a pointing device in print, is this just ignored in the new code? Rule 12.3.1.a shows how to use a pointing device to identify where to place the side bar but nowhere in the code does it explain how to braille the arrow in the realted example.

Finally, I suggested embedding the blue box inside of the highlighted text box, because if you apply the rules as written, the blue box with the pointing device is either a sidebar to the sidebar with the highlighted text or a note to the sidebar with the highlighted text. Since rule 12.3.1 says that a sidebar is placed with its related text, and the blank lines between the series of side bars in your solution would make this relationship unclear, I am wondering if a TN is needed to clarify the format you are suggesting? Neither of these situations (note or sidebar to a sidebar) are covered in the code, but it seems like there should be a section for notes or sidebars to sidebars as I have seen this format before.

[joannavenneri]

See Section 5 Font Attributes. This has changed a great deal from the old 1997 Braille Formats. In general, follow print for the different types of of attributes. Keep bold for bold and underlining for underlined text. See in particular 5.3 on situations in which font attributes can be ignored and 5.9 for situations in which font attributes can be changed or substituted. This material is used to help the transcriber makes decisions about font attributes.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

That is the correct use of the underline indicator. The indicator comes before the first (or only) underlined word and is followed by a space. After the last (or only) underlined word is a spaced termination sign.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

I have a nutrition book with little inspirational quotes in the margin that really don't relate to anything specific in the text. For example:

Feeling gratitude and not expressing it is like wrapping a present and not giving it. --William Arthur Ward

In the past I would have used the marginal note indicator and brailled it in cells 7/5, attribution in cell 9. with no blank lines before or after. Would this now be considered a sidebar? If so, I assume I would put a blank line before and after, braille it in cells 1/1 and attribution in cell 5.

Is the marginal note indicator now defunct?

[joannavenneri]

This is a different than the old Formats and it takes a little getting used to. First, the print material has to be correctly identified. It depends on whether the print is in fact, note or a sidebar. You may want to take another look at sidebars--Section 12. You might find that this supplants and now covers what used to be called marginal notes. Generally, notes have a specific reference to the text and sidebars do not. It depends on what you have. Do you have a print page you can send? Then I can explain further.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

I agree with you about the authors of the Algebra book. I think that all the additional information about the authors also goes on the second title page. See. 2.4.

Science book--since there are no authors listed on the print title page, follow print and list the authors as they appear in print order. This page will be a p-page.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

The 1-5, 3-7 format is no longer used at all. I'm not sure which section you are referring to. Do you mean something in Section 8 Lists? Which section exactly? This issue is directly covered in the section on Exercises, Section 10. See 10.4.2, which specifices the beginning cell and the runover.

Hope this helps. Please post again if it doesn't.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Just follow print and enclose the naterial in a box as printed. See 9.1.2. Boxed material is not trated as displayed material. Do not adjust the left margin and just use boxes.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

The example you sent doesn't show the text message exchange as embedded, so I didn't get that. Please send a page that shows the embedded texting you refer to. We have the example you sent and the embedded situation you are going to send. Are there any other instances of text messaging handled in any way OTHER than these two? If you have anything like that, please send it as well. I need to see ALL the different instances of the way texting is shown in order to work on formulating a consistent and readable solution.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Thanks for your reply but what you suggested will not work for this book. Boxes cannot be used effectively because some of the electronic messaging text is embedded inside normal paragraph text and only set off by a different typeface and capital letters– please refer to the first page of the sample file. If this material was all displayed and not interspersed with regular text, boxes would work fine and so would 1-3 format. However, that isn’t the case which is why we were struggling to find a way to set the text off the easiest, clearest way possible. I know underlining would be cumbersome but I don’t know what else to try at this point. Any more suggestions?

[joannavenneri]

This ia a great question and you have insightful observations about it. I agree with your coclusion that the problem here is to decide how to set off the texting. I would not use underlining because that adds an entity not present in the print and while underlining is a new format, I think it works best with single words or phrases and not with protracted passages such as this. Imagine what underlining all that would loook like in print!

I suggest boxes. Boxing is the most obvious and essential way to set off large print selections in braille. Use conventional capitalization and I think 1-3 dialog even though there are no speaker names. Don't the angle brackets indicate that the narrator is texting?

Write a TN that says the text messageing is printed in uppercase letters and that in braille the text message exchanges are enclsosed in boxes and the updercase print is omitted. I would keep the angle brackets as printed without comment and that reading experience will remain the same for the braille reader as it is for the print reader. List the angle brackets as special symbols.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Your questions are great. In a case like this, I find it easier to deal with a concrete situation and you have suggested one.

This is why these are called guidelines. Often, there is NOT a specific provision and that is why this is taking so long.

The issue here isn't so much the actual photo credits, but rather the issue of including or omitting text. The trend has moved steadily towards following print and NOT taking it upon ourselves to omit what is printed.

List photo credits in contents because we list everything printed in contents. If you are omitting any photos, explain in a TN. If you are omitting photo credits, explain that in a TN as well. Photo credits that don't match up with a picture can be omitted. Use your judgement. Depending on the situation and IF the credits are listed in contents, you can say that credits for omitted pictures are also omitted.

Pictures without captions--you may decide to describe some or all of these. You certainly should if the text refers to them in any way. But pictures with no captions that do not add information to the text can be omitted with notice. See 6.1.2 about omitted pictures with no caption.

Pictures that do have captions are generallly included along with accompanying credits that are present, usually following the caption.

For pictures that have ONLY the credit, consider treating that credit as a caption and describing the picture in a TN. If that picture truly should be omitted, consider a TN that notifies of the omission at that point and briefly mentions the credit by way of identification.

I hope this helps. That's why they call these guidelines.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Thanks for your patience. Contents listings are NOT omitted. So transcribe as listed. You can have a TN on the TN page that states omissions of certain picture, like those without captions, for instance, or any other pictures that are omitted. Also say in your TN that the credits for omitted pictures are also omitted. When you get to the picture credits, omit the credits that refer to omitted pictures.

--Joanna

[joannavenneri]

Readers--Kathy and I will conduct our troubleshooting in private e-mail. When we figure this out, we'll post the result. If there is anyone who has a similar issue, please post it here. And if there's anyone who has had this problem and already figured it out, please feel free to share.

--Joanna

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